Ken O’Keefe is a well-known activist who was aboard the Mavi Marmara, one of the ships in the flotilla that attempted to break Israel’s illegal blockade of the Gaza Strip. He recently gave a talk at Portland State University about his activism and his experience being attacked by the IDF while aboard the Mavi Marmara in international waters. That attack killed 9 of Ken's fellow activists.
During his talk, Ken mentioned disagreeing with some of Noam Chomsky’s positions, despite having been greatly influenced by him. During the Q&A session, I asked him to respond to what I understood to be Noam Chomsky’s criticisms of the current global campaign to boycott, divest, and sanction Israel in an attempt to improve the lives of Palestinians living under occupation.
I edited the video of Ken’s talk down to my question and the subsequent responses from him and other audience members, many of whom support BDS. The video appears courtesy of Indymedia and Joe-Anybody.com, and can be found in its entirety here. Transcript of the edited video below.
----
Kevin: I just wanted to say thank you for the talk. Thanks so much for what you did. I also consider you a hero [along with] everybody that was on those ships. And I also feel like I shared so many of the sentiments that you expressed, which is why I’m prefacing [my question] this way, because I want to challenge some ideas as well.
It’s because so much of what you said resonated with me and my path in coming to places like this and working with other people, but what I’m wondering about is, if we’re really going to take this idea of questioning things as citizens, [well] also, let’s take that as activists…I’m still trying to figure out the BDS thing; whether or not I really want to be a part of that.
You mentioned Noam Chomsky and that’s one of the other things that I identified with because he’s probably the biggest reason for me being involved, and I know that he is probably one of the bigger voices that is against BDS. His reasoning is that A: to say that South Africa’s ending of apartheid was as a result of these kinds of BDS actions is a mistelling of history, and B: being that Israel is in some ways the 51st US state and that we are funding – as you said – their terror, wouldn’t that be akin to boycotting ourselves? Wouldn’t that be akin to boycotting America/American products? Wouldn’t that be akin to collective punishment of the sort that we see in Gaza? Because what you’re doing is maybe similar to sanctioning, where you’re affecting a population for what their government is doing.
So I would be interested – because you are so articulate, and because I do find that I agree with a lot of what you said – to hear what you have to say about that; about those critiques, specifically the ones that were given by Noam Chomsky that I mentioned.
Moderator: OK. Why don’t we take a couple more questions, we’ll let [Ken] come back for a little while, take a couple more, and then let [Ken] wrap up at the end…
[Edit point]
Moderator: …I think one of the other questions that was on the floor is this comparison between BDS [of Israel and BDS of] South Africa and that Noam Chomsky specifically disagrees because BDS didn’t end the situation in South Africa…
Ken: With regard to that, I certainly didn’t suggest that boycott and divestment is what ended apartheid, but it played a role, and I think it’s ridiculous to question whether or not it played any role. It played a role. We could argue about how much, I just think that Noam Chomsky’s view on this is illogical, quite frankly.
Like 9/11 [so] we’ll tie the two together. Noam Chomsky has said that, effectively, even if it was an inside job, what does it matter?
Audience members: (laughing and saying “Yeah”)
Ken: That is beyond illogical. He’s an intelligent man. I’ve met with him. He has actually endorsed two different actions including Human Shields that I have initiated. I’ve met with him personally. I love him, but I don’t understand. It’s beyond logical; what he says. And 9/11: this is really the perfect example of where you’ve lost your ability to critically think you can buy into what’s being told to us, because it flies in the face of all critical analysis. But I just think Noam Chomsky’s flat-out wrong, without having more time…
Kevin: And the hypocrisy [because of] us being the funders of the apartheid that’s going on in Israel? That second point I think is really important and I wanted to hear what you had to say.
Ken: What’s the point again?
Kevin: The point is that if we’re going to boycott Israel, why not boycott America? We’re the ones funding the apartheid.
Ken: Well, it’s kind of difficult. I mean you could grow your own food and I would encourage people to do that. Absolutely. Why not? And it’s totally valid, actually. I don’t know why there isn’t a boycott American products [campaign], there should be.
Audience member: Yeah
Ken: I fully agree. I’ve said it, actually, for years and years: Why do we not have a concerted boycott America campaign? There should be. I mean, the reasoning is not even disputable! We’re the ones that are invading other nations, who are flouting international law, supporting Israel. There should be a boycott America campaign. We deserve it! Unfortunately, the rest of the world is maybe a little too hooked on our products, I don’t know, but that’s not a sensical argument to say we shouldn’t boycott Israel, I don’t think.
And, you know, Noam Chomsky is a two-stater. I didn’t get into it. One state! One state, one rule, period. Two states is a disaster.
Audience: (clapping)
Ken: I disagree with him there too, and Norman Finkelstein, who’s become somewhat of a friend, I love him too, but he’s a two-stater and I disagree with him whole-heartedly. I love what he says on every other level, but that one I disagree with.
[Edit point]
Moderator: OK, we’re going to take a couple more comments or questions and then get back to Ken. The gentleman in the red hoodie?...Adam?
Audience/Ken/Moderator: (laughter)
Adam: If people don’t mind I actually wanted to just take a stab at this question that Kevin raised…
Kevin: You would!
Audience/Ken/Moderator: (laughter)
Adam: As a BDS activist, I think obviously [nobody] is saying the situation in Israel/Palestine is identical to South Africa. In particular, I think, South Africa had a large black working class that from inside the country was able to put a lot bigger pressure on the government than the Palestinians do because the Israelis have essentially treated them like we treated Native Americans, right? They want to push them off the land and not use their labor as much as possible. But I think that’s why the BDS movement, in a sense, is actually in some ways more important in the Israel/Palestine struggle because it gives us a way to organize an international campaign that’s necessarily, I think, larger and bigger than the South African BDS campaign.
And I think it’s important to acknowledge too that this isn’t just isn’t just a couple activists in Europe and the US. I mean, this was a massive call by hundreds of groups within Palestinian civil society for a BDS campaign against Israel, right? I mean it’s like Arizona, right? Do you call the boycott of Arizona “collective punishment” when it comes from the Latinos in that community who are saying we need to boycott Arizona because of this racist law that’s being passed: SB1070? No! You stand in solidarity with the Latinos in Arizona who are making that call.
And, so, you’re right: BDS alone is not going to be able to…end the conflict. We have to deal with the US empire that funds Israel, and we have to deal with the other governments within the middle east that are complicit – particularly the Mubarak dictatorship in Egypt – so it’s going to take more than just BDS, but I think BDS is a crucial part of that international struggle that’s going to have to take place to shift those tectonic plates to win Palestinian liberation.
[Edit Point]
Moderator: OK, and I have [Hasan?] followed by Tyson.
Hasan(?): I want to comment on the BDS subject. It’s hard to predict or know how much effect the BDS will [have], but the most important part about it is that it’s a form of resistance. Like, in my religion, I believe God judges us for our decisions, even if they don’t do anything. The Palestinian kids, when they throw rocks at tanks, they’re doing nothing to the tank, but they say that we’re here, we resist, and we understand what’s going on. I think that’s the most important part about BDS...although we can’t predict [the outcome].
[Cuts to end]
